Curse

Yang Whirlwind · Nov 24, 2008, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamRunner

Yes weed does damage if you take it over a long period of time, but I guess the government forgot the damage that alcoholism does. I love the ideology of how people justify themselves by saying its for your own good, as if people are expecting to believe it without actually experiencing it. If people do say that x drug is bad without experiencing or knowing why, then simply they are ignorant and stupid.

The ideology of the law which you speak of, is the same ideology which Kevin Rudd is implementing for mandatory censorship over the internet in Australia.

So, by your logic I can tell you that suicide is a bad idea, but you really need to try it for yourself before you will believe me.
People who fail to listen to experts amaze me!

Do not in any way confuse or compare laws against drugs with laws limiting basic freedoms or the freedom of speech.

Alcohol takes about 24 hours to leave your system, meaning you can drink Saturday and still be 100% Monday morning.
Marijuana takes about a month to completely leave your system, meaning you will be dulled mentally Monday if you smoked a joint on Saturday!

Arkantos · Nov 24, 2008, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Quote:

Governments do not pass these laws to take away your rights, they do it to protect you and your fellow citizens from harm. This includes harm, you might inflict upon yourself knowingly or unwittingly. The law enforcement officers are charged with upholding those laws,- that is their job.

If they do this to protect us, why is tobacco and alcohol legal? Now I may be wrong, but I'd say alcohol kills more people than marijuana does. Tobacco and alcohol kill thousands (millions?) worldwide each year. They cause diseases. They cause irresponsible people to waste money. Saying they do this to protect us while they allow us to smoke tobacco and drink alcohol is very contradicting.

Quote:

Alcohol takes about 24 hours to leave your system, meaning you can drink Saturday and still be 100% Monday morning.
Marijuana takes about a month to completely leave your system, meaning you you will be dulled mentally Monday if you smoked a joint on Saturday!

If you smoke a joint on saturday, you aren't going to be brain dead monday. You may not be at 100%, but it certainly isn't going to majorly affect you.

Abedeus · Nov 24, 2008, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Quote:

If you smoke a joint on saturday, you aren't going to be brain dead monday. You may not be at 100%, but it certainly isn't going to majorly affect you.

Yeah, but if you can drink alcohol every 2 days and you will be fine. If you smoke marijuana every 2 days or every 5 days, you will NOT be as fine as with alcohol. Actually, in long time, marijuana damages your brain more, while alcohol liver. You can have a liver transplant, brain... not so much.

Yang Whirlwind · Nov 24, 2008, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

If they do this to protect us, why is tobacco and alcohol legal? Now I may be wrong, but I'd say alcohol kills more people than marijuana does. Tobacco and alcohol kill thousands (millions?) worldwide each year. They cause diseases. They cause irresponsible people to waste money. Saying they do this to protect us while they allow us to smoke tobacco and drink alcohol is very contradicting.

It is a very fine line between protecting people and limiting their personal freedom. In the end, I guess, a lot of the reason can be found in the fact that both alcohol and tobacco was culturally integrated before it became known it was harmful,- marijuana wasn't.
But you can't argue on behalf on marijuana without accepting that it a "gateway drug". Basically, every former drug addict I've ever met, says the same thing: they started with marijuana.
It also seems odd to me, that people always bring up alcohol and tobacco when discussing legalizing marijuana.
Seems like, when you did something you were not supposed to, as a child, then, when caught said: "but Tom and Jones did it too".
Did that ever work for you back then?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

If you smoke a joint on saturday, you aren't going to be brain dead monday. You may not be at 100%, but it certainly isn't going to majorly affect you.

It affects you enough, that experts on the effects of marijuana would deem you unfit to operate machinery,- cars included.
Arguing that you are only affected a little bit, would be like saying that it's ok you drive after drinking only a few beers. Something the law in most western countries does not allow either.

Master Fuhon · Nov 24, 2008, 08:10 PM // 20:10

There's a riddle that goes like "If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around, does it make a sound?” There are various ways to try to answer the question, but one of them is related to this thread topic. Just because you don't observe something, doesn't mean there is nothing to be observed. You observe no victim and no consequences that will affect other people; but this does not mean the behavior has affected no one. A legal system should never be based on how a ‘criminal’ views his own behavior. “Oh sorry, you shouldn’t have been bothered by my behavior; I meant for no one to get harmed.”

I don’t think it’s a good idea to rationalize all ‘victimless crimes’ so I’ll be sticking to the marijuana topic mostly. Each one has to be looked at for what it is. The term victimless crime has been used to falsely refer to terrible ways to treat spouses, children, and pets (all considered property under some legal systems). In these cases, the victim is obvious. If you hang an effigy of someone in a noose, the crime is victimless until someone is intimidated and the effigy is taken as a threat. Alcohol has obvious victims. Driving behavior affects the other people on the road. And public intoxication gets noticed when your behavior manages to draw outside attention. Second-hand smoke from tobacco products annoys other people and may harm their breathing. Lung and oral cancers also are an unnecessary expense on health care that we all end up paying for.

Alcohol and tobacco are the two most abused substances that we could probably justifiably prohibiting based on negative effects on society. Alcohol prohibition was tried in the US; organized crime sprouted up immediately and the prices shot up. Being able to sell alcohol at local liquor stores created a major reduction in these problems. Tobacco is slowly being dealt with by limiting the available places people can smoke in public; but it's definitely too big to remove chewing, pipe, and cigarette tobacco quickly. This version of the argument for marijuana amounts to nothing more than wanting to get away with something because someone else can. Marijuana prohibition isn’t close to the widespread problems resulting from alcohol prohibition (mostly a problem on Mexican/US border over here); countries have bigger problems with crack/cocaine right now.

Everyone always tries to falsely claim that what they do with their own body is a victimless crime. Well, this type of victimless crime is driving up the prices of health care for everyone who takes care of his/her own body. Drinking, smoking, being under/overweight to excess are not victimless crimes when someone who does none of these has to subsidize it. One person has minor health problems so he starts an exercise regimen; another takes some pills and has a surgery, and the problem reoccurs. Someone's already mentioned how governments have to help prop up people who willingly become dumber to be more effective at working to support the societies that provide for them.

What are the benefits of using marijuana? It would be helpful to get an unbiased opinion and not have to read all this garbage about how smoking marijuana cures cancer (from academic potheads) or how it is more dangerous than anything else (from tobacco lobbyists). THC has some health benefits that we aren't clear about, but smoking appears to be the worst way to reap those benefits. Making it a habit will kill your motivation levels and it will reshape your brain around its use. People want to point out famous geniuses who used the stuff; these people had brain cells they could afford to lose. The majority doesn't.

In many cases, you are only looking at a crime as victimless because someone has been locked away and prevented from doing anything. Not every drunk driver crashes, but most that don't crash have made the exact same decisions as those that do. It's also dishonest to refer to a single act in seclusion in cases where bad decisions are made in sequence under impairment. I became aware of this problem from living with someone in college who was a human cocktail of painkillers, marijuana, and everything else he dabbled with. A little bit of something might appear to help someone out, but a little bit of everything certainly doesn't. This may not be casual use, but it's not victimless crime when an addict can come into contact with other people. As with tobacco and alcohol, addiction starts before people know what they're messing with. The first decision of every addict was to try something. After that point, one person gets lucky and another's life gets ruined.

mrmango · Nov 25, 2008, 01:55 AM // 01:55

I say if you legalize marijuana, get some revenue off it and create laws resembling alcohol laws, and cutting red tape if at all possible. That said, put the drinking age down to 18.

forbidden fruit..

the savage nornbear · Nov 25, 2008, 02:01 AM // 02:01

In my opinion, the marijuana is well on its way to be legalized. I figure at some point in my lifetime, I can toke up free of worry.

Kerwyn Nasilan · Nov 25, 2008, 03:02 AM // 03:02

Legalize it and put heavy taxes on it imo. Simple

zwei2stein · Nov 25, 2008, 09:02 AM // 09:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kerwyn Nasilan

Legalize it and put heavy taxes on it imo. Simple

Yes, system of current legal drugs: Let people use them, but include health-care and society bill.

I shall note, however, that lots of drug-related problems (i.e. crime) are caused by per-dose price. Some drugs might require huge taxes to payback society for their use. Big enough price tag to drive users to theft to sustain their addiction, loosing advantage of legal drug system: economic (low) prices thanks to competition that won't bleed users dry (and leave them enough for decent meal and living conditions).

Not that simple.

DreamRunner · Nov 25, 2008, 01:27 PM // 13:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yang Whirlwind

So, by your logic I can tell you that suicide is a bad idea, but you really need to try it for yourself before you will believe me.
People who fail to listen to experts amaze me!

Do not in any way confuse or compare laws against drugs with laws limiting basic freedoms or the freedom of speech.

Alcohol takes about 24 hours to leave your system, meaning you can drink Saturday and still be 100% Monday morning.
Marijuana takes about a month to completely leave your system, meaning you will be dulled mentally Monday if you smoked a joint on Saturday!

Of course you can tell me its a bad idea, but you don't know what it is like until you try it. I know a boy who did do suicide and failed. He tried it again 6 weeks later and died. I know the effects of the suicide can do to others because ive experienced it. But the experience of actually doing it is something I can only imagine and telling yourself that things are a bad idea because you've been told by society or people is foolish.

Since ive experienced the effects of suicide, I can tell you that it is bad. And just because there is an expert doesn't mean that he knows what suicide is like itself. If a doctor whom specialized in diabetes(endocrinologist) and didn't have the disease, would he know more about diabetes than a person who has it? I would say No, however you're saying yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Yeah, but if you can drink alcohol every 2 days and you will be fine. If you smoke marijuana every 2 days or every 5 days, you will NOT be as fine as with alcohol. Actually, in long time, marijuana damages your brain more, while alcohol liver. You can have a liver transplant, brain... not so much.

Weed does and doesn't cause brain damage. Some studies says it doesn't and again doesn't, while some said it does.

If you smoked weed every two days, also depends on how much you smoked and drank. Drink to much and you're screwed with alcohol poisoning. The effects of alcohol uses up thiamine and screws up the liver which also effects your digestive system which leads to malnutrition, cancer, etc.
If you smoked to much weed you will just get very high(you can't overdose on weed). Marijuana has been considered a neuroprotectant, which can damage the lungs and is debatable about either if causes brain damage or not. I know that alcohol can cause brain damage, just look at all the people who are drunk on the street and have trouble walking.

Doing weed for a long time over 5 joints a day will cause some effects on your body, and it is the same with ANY drug if you abuse it. Moderation is key.

Abedeus · Nov 25, 2008, 02:58 PM // 14:58

Quote:

I know that alcohol can cause brain damage, just look at all the people who are drunk on the street and have trouble walking.

I know that drugs can cause brain damage, just look at all the people that are high and can't think or talk without jibberish.

pamelf · Nov 25, 2008, 03:36 PM // 15:36

You cannot be arrested for being high. You can be detained until you are sober, but you can't be criminally charged with being high unless you have drugs in your posession. You CAN be arrested for partaking in activities which may cause harm to other while being high. Police will never raid your home if you are a casual 'smoker'; the only time you will be raided is if you are thought to be dealing, growing or mixing drugs in any way. When this occurs, the crime is no longer victimless.

If you smoke pot in your lounge room, by yourself, in small doses you have nothing to worry about from law enforcement. Technically it's against the law, but so's J-walking...it's a grey area. As soon as you take drugs OUT of your house anything that can occur makes the crime no longer victimless. As soon as interraction occurs you can be fined, jailed etc.

EroChrono · Nov 25, 2008, 03:49 PM // 15:49

It's pretty ironic, it seems the rest of the world is getting more open to the use of marijuana, while here in the Netherlands more coffeeshops are getting closed every day and more and more people are voicing there opinions against the legalisation (or the "gedoogbeleid" really).
However, conservative people are most likely to react to this in a way off; "See! Even the dutch people are fed up with the legal use of marijuana, it's bad!".
Between now and 10 years ago, very, very little has changed in terms of people using/abusing marijuana, it is more to blame on the change in the political climate. The society is really losing it laidback, liberal attitude, something the Netherlands used to be (in)famous for across the borders.

As far as the alcohol vs weed debate;
It's all about amount you take.
If you smoke a big joint with quality "Netherweed" (nederwiet), which probably has the highest THC percentage you can get anywhere, all by yourself, it will definitely fcuk you up, but so will drinking an entire bottle of wodka.
You can drink yourself to death in 1 night, good luck trying that smoking :P
If you share a joint with a couple of people, or drinking a couple of beers, perhaps some shots, with the blow you should be fine within a hour, maybe two, you'll be worse off drinking alcohol. Sure, the weed will be detectable longer in your bloodstream, but it won't really affect you.
If you get tipsy every day or slightly high everyday, you'll probably be worse with the alcohol in the long run.
Also, if you smoke weed everyday you might get mentally addicted to it. If you drink alcohol everyday, you'll become mentally addicted to it, and psyshically depended on it.

Eventhough all that, I'd pick getting drunk over getting high, it's just not really my thing.

Also, I think this thread didn't exactly went in the direction the OP was trying/hoping for xD

DreamRunner · Nov 25, 2008, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

I know that drugs can cause brain damage, just look at all the people that are high and can't think or talk without jibberish.

High? Oh you mean being drunk. Yes alcohol really impairs you from speaking and thinking properly. Being high on weed, not so much.

Winterclaw · Nov 25, 2008, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Maybe the goverment was right to illegalize marajuana and wrong to re-legalize alcohol.

fusa · Nov 26, 2008, 04:00 AM // 04:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by pamelf

You cannot be arrested for being high. You can be detained until you are sober, but you can't be criminally charged with being high unless you have drugs in your posession. You CAN be arrested for partaking in activities which may cause harm to other while being high. Police will never raid your home if you are a casual 'smoker'; the only time you will be raided is if you are thought to be dealing, growing or mixing drugs in any way. When this occurs, the crime is no longer victimless.

If you smoke pot in your lounge room, by yourself, in small doses you have nothing to worry about from law enforcement. Technically it's against the law, but so's J-walking...it's a grey area. As soon as you take drugs OUT of your house anything that can occur makes the crime no longer victimless. As soon as interraction occurs you can be fined, jailed etc.

That depends on the country you live in. In the United States, they will raid your house for personal use. The town I went to college in had a police dog they used to find users. They would go through the dorms and off campus apartment complexes with the dog sniffing outside residences for drug use. The first year of using the dog they found 40 lbs of marijuana. It was a university of about 30,000 students.
Several of my friends were PhD candidates for the universitie's Biochemistry department, others in MBA or other post graduate work, they all smoked daily. It slows reaction time, it doesn't make people stupid. The people that act like the actors in movies like Cheech and Chong, etc are usually first time users, or just stupid druggies.

the savage nornbear · Nov 26, 2008, 04:02 AM // 04:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Maybe the goverment was right to illegalize marajuana and wrong to re-legalize alcohol.

Blasphemy!!!!

Yang Whirlwind · Nov 26, 2008, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamRunner

Of course you can tell me its a bad idea, but you don't know what it is like until you try it. I know a boy who did do suicide and failed. He tried it again 6 weeks later and died. I know the effects of the suicide can do to others because ive experienced it. But the experience of actually doing it is something I can only imagine and telling yourself that things are a bad idea because you've been told by society or people is foolish.

You know the effects suicide has on the person's surroundings,- not the effects of actually committing one yourself.
So, in your logic ... shouldn't you go try it? Maybe you're missing out on a lot of fun!

Telling yourself you know better than the experts are foolish!

DreamRunner · Nov 26, 2008, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yang Whirlwind

You know the effects suicide has on the person's surroundings,- not the effects of actually committing one yourself.
So, in your logic ... shouldn't you go try it? Maybe you're missing out on a lot of fun!

Telling yourself you know better than the experts are foolish!

If I wanted to know what it is like, then yes I should. There is no other way to know on the experience of committing suicide is like unless you do it.

And you proved my point anyway. Unless I commit suicide, I cannot know the experience of doing it. We are effected by people's actions all the time but that also means we cannot know what it is like for the person itself who is experiencing that action. If an expert has never been drunk before, can he know what it is like being drunk? Its impossible.

You also cannot know what it is like me being drunk, unless you are me. Of course if you have the experience of being drunk, you can have a better understanding on what it is like being drunk, however you cannot know what it is like being me when I am drunk. If you have two cancer patients whom both have had cancer for two years. Does cancer patient A know what it is like to have cancer the same way as cancer patient B? Unless patient A and B are the same person, they cannot know what it is like to have cancer for each other. Why? Both patients have different experiences of having cancer and therefore have different understandings on what it is like of having cancer.

Do cancer patients or people who have committed suicide know what it is like experiencing cancer or suicide better than an expert who hasn't? Yeah, they really do.

Yang Whirlwind · Nov 26, 2008, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamRunner

If I wanted to know what it is like, then yes I should. There is no other way to know on the experience of committing suicide is like unless you do it.

And you proved my point anyway. Unless I commit suicide, I cannot know the experience of doing it. We are effected by people's actions all the time but that also means we cannot know what it is like for the person itself who is experiencing that action. If an expert has never been drunk before, can he know what it is like being drunk? Its impossible.

You also cannot know what it is like me being drunk, unless you are me. Of course if you have the experience of being drunk, you can have a better understanding on what it is like being drunk, however you cannot know what it is like being me when I am drunk. If you have two cancer patients whom both have had cancer for two years. Does cancer patient A know what it is like to have cancer the same way as cancer patient B? Unless patient A and B are the same person, they cannot know what it is like to have cancer for each other. Why? Both patients have different experiences of having cancer and therefore have different understandings on what it is like of having cancer.

Do cancer patients or people who have committed suicide know what it is like experiencing cancer or suicide better than an expert who hasn't? Yeah, they really do.

So, what you're suggesting is that we should only listen to drug addicts or former drugs addicts when dealing with whether or not to legalize something like marijuana. Because all the doctors and scientists haven't done drugs, so their opinions does not count! That is just about the most silly thing I've heard this month!